DC over PS2

September 4, 2002, 10:47 PM CST by Hayate

Who else besides me chooses DC over PS2?

September 4, 2002, 11:31 PM CST by khaid to Hayate

I'd choose DC over PS2... if they still made many games for it.

September 5, 2002, 1:18 AM CST by xjames19

I prefer Dreamcast. I hate Sony. and all playstation product. Look 200 bucks right now for a two years old technology and gamecube being newer cost 150. and it doesn't have hardrive and anything, At leats I can get a dreamcast with two control and some games for somehrhing around 50 bucks more or less in ebay.

And you can play burned games with mochip. I am saying this here because is a dead console.

Un saludo amigo.

September 5, 2002, 4:32 AM CST by Chipaku to Hayate

hell yes, DC is much better than PS2. well, it was anyway. I guess it still is, but too bad theres hardly any new games for it.

September 5, 2002, 6:58 AM CST by Kolgar

Sorry folks, there are a few DC games that I really like, but PS2's massive software library have made it my primary system this generation. Xbox still runs a close second, however, 'cause there've been some great games for that system too.

Notice I didn't blather on about technology? We're talking video games, people. It's about the games. They take front and center.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 10:50 AM CST by OG10

Its all about taste, right I like something’s you like some things, I love games that are immressive and the DC gave me plenty of games that did that with effortless disdain, whereas, the PS2 didn’t do that for me, neither did the xbox, besides halo, shenmue was the killer app for me, it was amazing and i think it will be sometime before a console can ever come that close. So DC is the best cuz of that but the shenmue series lands on the XB soon, so I am wet for the games. Well Kolgar is justified in what he gets from games; we all get something out of something so why seek any further justification to what is better or not?

September 5, 2002, 12:08 PM CST by Kolgar

Thank you for taking this discussion where it needed to go. It's all about people's tastes in games. Always. And that means there is no right or wrong system - there's only what's the most fun for each individual person.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 12:14 PM CST by pvcHH to Kolgar

Except the GBA. That system is just WRONG.

September 5, 2002, 12:16 PM CST by OG10 to pvcHH

LOL!!! I am not sure Khaid would agree with that.

September 5, 2002, 12:18 PM CST by pvcHH to OG10

Yeah. I think I'm actually jealous of anyone who has a GBA, but I'm going to stifle my jealousy and replace it with disdane. Is that acceptable behavior?

September 5, 2002, 12:20 PM CST by OG10 to pvcHH

ofcourse.. are you scratching the surface of something bigger here, when people say they hate something is that through lack of exploration... maybe i am reading too much into it.

September 5, 2002, 12:24 PM CST by pvcHH to OG10

Just discussing the possibility. One never knows.

Especially if that one is me.

September 5, 2002, 12:37 PM CST by Chipaku to Kolgar

well the question was never about wrong or right. the guy just wanted to know who chooses DC over PS2.

September 5, 2002, 3:04 PM CST by khaid to pvcHH

Except the GBA. That system is just WRONG.

Them's fighting words.

I still like the DC actually.. it has some of the great Capcom and SNK fighting games.. The Last Blade 2, MvC series, SF3 and alpha games, and Capcom vs SNK series.

Finally, the next gen systems are gettting these. ;)

September 5, 2002, 5:19 PM CST by Hien

i don't think i've ever once disagreed with Kolgars words.
kinda makes me feel like i should say whats been said.

I've always disliked the DC. One thing i really hated was the controller and how crappy it was made. The only good thing the DC had were game titles. Specially MVC series (the controller was too crappy for MVC)

PS2 the ssytem is just better. Now, If only it had fighting games like the DC, it would own.

Plus i think Sonic was better for the GC.
---
Hien

September 5, 2002, 6:09 PM CST by OG10 to Hien

Why not just get the DC-PS2 controler thing, wouldnt that make life easier..

September 5, 2002, 7:07 PM CST by XboxCubePS2

My Afterburner GBA rocks. GBA sucks ass if you can't see what you're playing. True portability doesn't come until you can play in all conditions.

Dreamcast was a nice system when it was around, and innovated in a lot of areas, but it's a dead system.

It's not important which system we think is better anyway. The market ultimately decides, and Dreamcast was given the axe.

Of course my screen name is in order of superiority.

September 5, 2002, 7:12 PM CST by OG10 to XboxCubePS2

Is the afterburner any good, of that i ask, is it clear as the Game gear or better?

BTW XCP i feel like i should call you sir, i dont know why, it is a compulsion, are you older than me, you dont have to say, but its a wiered state of mind when i feel some strange sense of duty to call you sir... strange. Anyhoo where is the AFT bruner powered from?

September 5, 2002, 7:39 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

Of course my screen name is in order of superiority.

I hope you mean technical superiority. Once you factor in the games, it's a whole new ballgame for many.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 7:40 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to OG10

It's basically a thin plexi-glass screen with two small leads leading out one corner. If you look really close at it, you can see what looks like a tiny grid of some sort inside. Kind of like a rear-window defroster on your car. Somehow the light produced is evenly distributed throughout the screen without an obvious source point.

When you install the Afterburner, you take take out the LCD screen and lay a very delicate anti-reflective film on top of it with a credit card and tweezers. The plexi light screen lays on top of that which lets the light distribute without glare.

You basically solder the leads of the light screen with a resister to the voltage points on the circuit board, so it draws power from the batteries. You lose about 1 hour of battery life using the Afterburner.

In pitch darkness I can play Castlevania: CotM better than someone in direct sunlight. My GBA lights up my room.

September 5, 2002, 7:43 PM CST by OG10 to XboxCubePS2

Seems a worthy purchase, i might have to get one, along with all those projects that are being done on it, it seems like a cool console to have, i got one initially and then lost intrest and sold it.

September 5, 2002, 7:44 PM CST by Kolgar to Hien

Let me put it this way: I never would have paid the launch price ($199) for Dreamcast.

Like you, I think the controller was poorly designed and just didn't feel right. And while there are a handful of games that I really like on the system - Jet Set Radio, Shenmue, Space Channel 5, Soul Calibur - there just wasn't ever enough there to make the system more than an afterthought for me.

I take it you're interested in 2D fighters such as those from Capcom? 'Cause PS2 has most of the others covered: Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and the new Soul Calibur.

Thanks for the kind words.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 8:02 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

Not really. Games come down to subjectivity, which means no one can decide what system is superior on that basis alone. One system can have 10 games, and the other 500, but if you like all 10 of the former and only 1 of the latter, then the number of games means nothing.

Take my personal collection of games. I have 5 PS2 games, the last one purchased in March. I have 10 Xbox and 10 Cube games, but am most excited about Xbox games coming up and Xbox Live. Therefore, Xbox is the superior console in my opinion based on games with Cube a close second. PS2 lags far behind.

September 5, 2002, 8:09 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

I see. Thanks for explaining.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 8:11 PM CST by XboxCubePS2

I'd actually sell my PS2 off if it wasn't for FFXII whenever that comes out. Square is the ONLY real reason I wouldn't sell my PS2 today. I know I'll be locked out of their FF series if I do. FFX was the only reason I bought one in the first place...which is why I waited until Dec 2001 to get one. Basically I was willing to pay $200 to play the next FF.

And I still bought my PS2 used from EB. No way was I going to contribute to their unit sales for outdated hardware at full price.

September 5, 2002, 8:22 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

$200 was reasonable for Dreamcast. I paid $200 for my SNES and Genesis when they launched. It's the market standard price for a new console. Any higher usually means the market rejects it, and Cube was the first system in a while to break the trend.

I liked the controller for Dreamcast. My only complaint were the stiff triggers that had too little surface area.

Compare that to PS2 controllers. My biggest beef with them is how they separate the d-pad into 4 buttons. I absolutely can't stand that. That's why I have to use 3rd party controllers. Also, the lack of triggers sucks...shoulder buttons are a poor substitute for some types of games.

September 5, 2002, 8:51 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

$200 was reasonable for Dreamcast.

Only if you liked the games. As I said, I myself was only interested in a handful of games released over the span of the console's life.

I paid $200 for my SNES and Genesis when they launched. It's the market standard price for a new console. Any higher usually means the market rejects it, and Cube was the first system in a while to break the trend.

PlayStation and PlayStation2 launched at $299. PSX is the #1 most popular console ever, and PS2 is on track to beat it.

I liked the controller for Dreamcast. My only complaint were the stiff triggers that had too little surface area.

I had many gripes. It felt hollow. The thumbstick was a joke - and awkwardly placed to boot. The D-pad felt flimsy. The buttons felt small and beady. The triggers were too small, as you said. The thing was far from ergonomic, and worst of all, the goddamn cord came out of the bottom! How in heaven's name are you supposed to comfortably rest the controller in your lap if you've got a goddamn controller cord tickling your groin?

Compare that to PS2 controllers... Also, the lack of triggers sucks...shoulder buttons are a poor substitute for some types of games.

You mean Xbox has triggers that PS2 doesn't? I never noticed. I just thought of them all as shoulder buttons and they all work fine for me. And PS2 gives you two more than the other guys.

I still think PS2 has the best all-around controller, though I like the original "big" Xbox control surprisingly well.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 10:14 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

I don't remember PSOne ever being $300. Maybe $300 Aussie bucks. And I had one since launch.

Gameboy is the most popular console ever. 110 mil units worldwide.

Triggers and shoulder buttons are two totally diff things. PS2 has shoulders, Xbox has triggers, and Cube has triggers and one shoulder. Shoulder buttons are a poor substitute when it comes to certain games like FPS. That's why they don't use those for firing in such games for PS2. Also, the analog sticks for PS2 are junk and obviously added as an afterthought. PS2 controllers are best suited for precision games like fighters and drivers.

September 5, 2002, 10:42 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

I don't remember PSOne ever being $300. Maybe $300 Aussie bucks. And I had one since launch.

September 9, 1995: launch date for PlayStation in North America. I bought my PSX at TRU for $299.99.

Gameboy is the most popular console ever. 110 mil units worldwide.

Console? I don't consider Gameboy a console. It's not a freestanding cabinet-style box. It's a handheld game machine, designed for portability. A very different animal, at a very different price range.

Shoulder buttons are a poor substitute when it comes to certain games like FPS. That's why they don't use those for firing in such games for PS2.

*shrug* Never bothered me. And in the PS2 FPSs I remember playing - TimeSplitters, Quake, and Medal of Honor come to mind - I always used the R1 shoulder button to fire.

Also, the analog sticks for PS2 are junk and obviously added as an afterthought.

An afterthought? The DualShock was a purposeful redesign of the original PSX pad - the next evolutionary step in PlayStation input devices. I don't think those analog sticks were an afterthought after all.

Afterthoughts don't have so much thought put into them - such as being able to use them as buttons by pushing down on the thumb sticks.

Love 'em or hate 'em, they sure as hell influenced Microsoft and Nintendo when those companies designed their current-gen game pads.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 10:45 PM CST by OG10

Damn the PSone was launched on my b-day. Sorry guys, to break in, but it seems like you like different things about the respective consoles so why not leave it at that?

September 5, 2002, 11:11 PM CST by Chipaku to Kolgar

the Dual Shock is an afterthought.
it didnt come out until after Sega and Nintendo had already made analog control pads, along with games that put them to use.

and Xbox and GameCube controllers are modelled after Dreamcast/N64 designs, not influened by Sony.

September 5, 2002, 11:28 PM CST by Kolgar to Chipaku

Aww, dude, you've made so much sense lately. And now this? ;)

the Dual Shock is an afterthought. it didnt come out until after Sega and Nintendo had already made analog control pads, along with games that put them to use.

Just because a company adopts a successful feature into its own products, does that mean that that feature is an afterthought?

Take the first console to use programmable, removable game cartridges (was that the Fairchild Channel F?). Does that mean that the cartridge slots on the Atari 2600, Odyssey2, Intellivision, etc., etc., etc., were all afterthoughts?

Intellivision came with keypads on the game pads. Coleco put keypads into ColecoVision gamepads later. Does that make it an afterthought?

No; it's an evolutionary step in gamepad design, just like the analog thumbstick on Sony's DualShock.

Incidentally, the DualShock was the first home gamepad to feature built-in rumble capability. That's an innovation.

The DualShock2 used in PS2 was the first gamepad to feature analog face and shoulder buttons with 256 degrees of pressure. That's another innovation.

Sony also created a game that easily made the best use of analog control of any game at the time - Ape Escape.

and Xbox and GameCube controllers are modelled after Dreamcast/N64 designs, not influened by Sony.

Though I'm sure Microsoft and Nintendo benefitted from lots of influences, the DualShock was the first gamepad to feature dual analog thumbsticks. Isn't it ironic that both Xbox and Gamecube now incorporate this same feature?

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 11:30 PM CST by Kolgar to OG10

Sorry guys, to break in, but it seems like you like different things about the respective consoles so why not leave it at that?

There's no problem here. Yes, we have different preferences. I'm just trying to set the facts straight and make the distinction between facts and one's opinions.

Kolgar

September 5, 2002, 11:36 PM CST by xjames19 to Kolgar

YEah The PS2 control is very good for many sport games.

Have ypu tried to use the convertor to use PS2 control on xbox or gamecube.

Un saludo amigo.

September 6, 2002, 1:19 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

There's no way I bought my first PS for $300. It's been 7 years so if you can link to anywhere where it was advertised at retail as such...there has to be somewhere to reference to that.

I count Gameboy a videogame console. More so than today's quasi-PC machines. It has more in common with the previous generations than they do. It's a self-contained consumer device that has one purpose: to play videogames. Whether it's portable or not is a non-issue. I can make a Cube portable with an LCD screen. I have a PSOne+LCD that's very portable, and can even get a battery for it so it doesn't need to be plugged in. The pricing of handheld consoles are disproportionately higher than their larger counterparts considering the form, features, and function between the two. If anything handheld consoles are overpriced. Their games are DEFINATELY overpriced...look at GBA games at $40. A mere 20% cheaper than home consoles for far less content.

I always used the R1 shoulder button to fire.

That's fine. But it's still not a trigger is what I'm getting at.

An afterthought? The DualShock was a purposeful redesign of the original PSX pad - the next evolutionary step in PlayStation input devices. I don't think those analog sticks were an afterthought after all.

Evolutionary perhaps, but so is every redesign of a gamepad from one console to the next. Definately not revolutionary. That credit must be given to Nintendo who moved the console industry from strictly digital pads to analog and digital with the intro of N64's controller. Dual Shock followed suit. And if you want to talk about evolution of gamepads, the DS was introduced during the last generation consoles. Which means PS2's controllers didn't evolve at all. In my opinion, it's not because it doesn't need change, but Sony didn't feel the need to innovate in this area.

Afterthoughts don't have so much thought put into them - such as being able to use them as buttons by pushing down on the thumb sticks.

You call that thought? I definately call that afterthought. They must have been concentrating so much on that concept they forgot that proper placement of analog sticks wouldn't mean bending both thumbs down and inward 1.5 inches from each other.

Love 'em or hate 'em, they sure as hell influenced Microsoft and Nintendo when those companies designed their current-gen game pads.

Sure, they saw what NOT to do. DON'T separate the D-pad into digital buttons. DON'T use a monkey to test where the analog sticks should be placed. DON'T forget to use triggers with shoulder buttons optional.

Nintendo's gamepad looks influenced by its own history and innovation techniques.

Microsoft's gamepad is a reflection of Sega Dreamcast crossed with PC gamepads.

Incidentally, the DualShock was the first home gamepad to feature built-in rumble capability. That's an innovation.

I guess that means dual rumble gyros in the Xbox gamepad is an innovation. I think not. Add-on to built-in. It's a minor change to avoid battery consumption. The only reason this wasn't done before was because of cost cutting conserns and extra peripheral sales. When one company sells a toy without batteries, and the other sells the same toy with batteries included, the latter didn't think of anything new...it just made a marketing move.

Sony also created a game that easily made the best use of analog control of any game at the time - Ape Escape.

Zelda 64 was easily the greatest use of analog control in that generation. It was perfection.

Though I'm sure Microsoft and Nintendo benefitted from lots of influences, the DualShock was the first gamepad to feature dual analog thumbsticks. Isn't it ironic that both Xbox and Gamecube now incorporate this same feature?

Not really. It was the natural course of progression in game design from 2D software to 3D. Also considering twin analog control has been in arcade use since the 80s, it's not surprising this eventually migrated to consoles. So is it ironic that home consoles now have integrated a feaure of arcade gaming 15 years ago?

Look at the placement of input devices on the PS2 DS. The digital pad is still the primary input with analog secondary. The natural placement of the hand on a PS2 controller puts the left thumb above the d-pad. This is why the placement is opposite on the Cube and Xbox pads. It's Sony that still hasn't moved forward in the evolutionary chain.

September 6, 2002, 1:21 AM CST by chairmansteve to Kolgar

If they didn't think about it at first, then it's an afterthought. Was Sony planing PSX analog controller from the start but just didn't release it till later? N64 had it from the start.

September 6, 2002, 1:27 AM CST by chairmansteve to XboxCubePS2

DON'T separate the D-pad into digital buttons.

That's for damn sure.

September 6, 2002, 1:30 AM CST by khaid to XboxCubePS2

Yes, it was $299.99 at launch. I bought mine in the summer of 1998 for $199.99

September 6, 2002, 2:11 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to khaid

Hm...the pain from that purchase must have numbed some memory portion of my brain then. Then correct my $199 industry avg figure to $300. Adjusted for inflation!

September 6, 2002, 7:16 AM CST by Kolgar to chairmansteve

"Afterthought" means 'thinking again about a choice previously made; "he had second thoughts about his purchase" [syn: reconsideration, second thought, rethink] 2: an addition that was not included in the original plan; "the garage was an afterthought".'

The features in DualShock were added as new ideas became available. I guess I don't consider that as much an afterthought as Sega hastily adding in a second Hitachi chip and other doodads into Saturn after they got wind of what Sony was up to with their design of PlayStation.

Regardless, we all have our tastes in gamepads. Like what you like - I sure don't want to stop you.

Kolgar

September 6, 2002, 7:25 AM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

Whether it's portable or not is a non-issue.

I couldn't disagree more. Portable game systems are as different, in my opinion, as the PC "game platform" is from real consoles. The display is different (high-res monitor vs. television vs. compact little window in portables), the capabilities are vastly different (a high-end PC has much higher specs than the consoles just as the consoles have a much higher spec than portables), the price range is different ($2,500 for a high-end PC vs. $200 for a console vs. $90 for a portable), and the purpose is different (high-end gaming, with a focus on RTS and first-person games on PC, social games with an action focus on consoles, and solo games on the go with portables).

Put it all together, and the reality is that portables are so different from real consoles that they are truly two separate product categories.

Put it this way: I don't see Sony or Microsoft worrying about Gameboy. That's not their competition. Their competition is each other, and Nintendo's real console, Gamecube.

And DualShock2 DID change. As I said, it gained analog face and shoulder buttons that the original DualShock and all other console controllers lacked. Sony didn't mess with the design because, as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You don't like it, that's obvious. And that's fine. But your preferences are not necessarily facts that hold true for everyone.

Kolgar

P.S. I probably still have my PSX receipt that clearly shows I bought PlayStation for $299. Would you like to see it? By the way, Saturn launched at $399 in May of 1995. Part of the reason it bombed, I'm sure.

September 6, 2002, 8:21 AM CST by OG10

I want to back to those days of new 32-bit, when each release seemed like a god send. Now i feel plain and unimpressed by most games..

September 6, 2002, 8:32 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

Videogame consoles are specialized for one purpose: playing videogames. ANY kind of videogames. That's what they were from the beginning, and if anything, it's today's home consoles that are blurring the line between what's more a console or a PC, the more they begin to take on characteristics and capabilities outside the traditional realm of videogame consoles.

PCs differ and are not considered consoles, not because of price/specs/visual device or size, but because of their function. Personal computers, as you know, are simply multi-functional tools that allow people to perform a plethora of tasks faster and better than possible without. Gaming is just one of these functions. Sure, you may buy or assemble a custom computer with gaming as a priority, but your hardware and operating system was designed not for that solely, but to be capable of performing dozens of tasks faster and more efficiently than before. Your gaming machine is still capable of word processing, crunching numbers, running utility progs, aiding your business or work, etc. If your gaming PC were a console, it'd be an Xbox. A computer built solely for gaming.

GBA is a videogame console just as much as a SNES. It just fits in the palm of your hand. It's function is video games, and that's it. It's even cartridge based and has similar graphics to the SNES. Technology has simply allowed the 16 bit home console to shrink down to size. GBA is more a videogame console than any of the 128 bit systems out today.

Put it this way: I don't see Sony or Microsoft worrying about Gameboy. That's not their competition. Their competition is each other, and Nintendo's real console, Gamecube.

I'd call Cube the peripheral for GBA. If it wasn't for the wider profit margins of the handheld's software, Nintendo wouldn't be able to compete with Microsoft and Sony in the home console market. GBA units worldwide are on track to hit 20 mil this year. Sony has finally discontinued the PocketStation here in Japan about a month ago, and Microsoft has enough on its hands concentrating on making Xbox successful to worry about a market dominated by Nintendo to an extreme that surpasses their monopoly in the OS market. GBA doesn't compete directly with home consoles because it's the only significant handheld console around. People with home consoles are just as likely to own a GBA. But do GBA software games compete for the purchasing dollars of consumers who own home consoles too? You bet. At $40 a pop, you bet that weighs on the mind of the person deciding on which game to buy...whether for his Xbox, PS2, or Cube. That $10 difference isn't going to buy him a home console game, that's for sure.

It's the Gameboy that allows Nintendo to remain the most profitable videogame company in the world, year after year. Yes, even when Playstation outsold N64 2:1. Considering all these things, I definately consider Gameboy the most successful console of all time.

September 6, 2002, 9:37 AM CST by pvcHH to XboxCubePS2

I see your point, but I don't agree. I wouldn't say that PocketPCs are eating into the PC market. They're different products even though they're the same. :)

September 6, 2002, 10:14 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to pvcHH

That's not the same thing. PocketPCs aren't a focused product like consoles...they're still aimed at multi-functionality. Someone could have a PC for mostly gaming and word processing and a PocketPC for a mobile daily planner and perhaps mobile internet. So they wouldn't conflict. Or a PC for graphic art and music composition, and a PocketPC for taking the finished products to work or conferences.

Consoles are trying to sell games, period. Example... Someone like me with 5 consoles (xbox/ps2/cube/gba/psone+lcd) and buys 1 game a week has to choose among them. Every week 4 of 5 consoles lose out in competition to the others to get my business since all their prices for software are with 20% of each other on average. Think about someone with a PS2 and GBA and buys one game a month. Those two consoles are going to compete for that $50.

September 6, 2002, 10:22 AM CST by pvcHH to XboxCubePS2

I still think it's the same thing. One's built for one purpose in your home (Console/PC), and the other's built for the same purpose (yet dumbed down a little) on the go (pocketPC, GBA). The software is incompatible, yet sometimes the two things are capable of communicating. If anything, GBA sales should enhance GCN sales, because you can upload characters from GBA to certain games on GCN. I think people like you and I (and most of the people on this board) are an anomaly in that we have multiple consoles. Most people who have a single console wouldn't have a problem purchasing a GBA as well because it's so darn cheap, and serves such a different purpose.

++ new argument:

If anything, the GBA would eat away at PocketPC or Palm Devices sales, because they're all mobile electronics, which is where I see the market overlap, rather than gaming machine vs. multifunction machine. IMO, people have mobile devices to stave off boredom, not to be more efficient. GBA does that better than anything else.

September 6, 2002, 11:16 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to pvcHH

The hardware isn't nearly as important as the software, and that's where the comparison of PocketPC/PC to handheld/home consoles doesn't work. The latter both deal with only game software...the consumers of each are only interested in games. That's where they're spending their money. The PPC/PC owner can have any one of several reasons to own either, and the software wouldn't conflict unless they were the same type. And often this isn't true since much of the same software purchased can be installed on either one without additional expense.

About GBA/Cube connectivity...really now, how many games are using this feature 10 months since launch?

And GBA has far more in common with an Xbox, Cube, or PS2 than any palm pilot or PPC.

September 6, 2002, 11:18 AM CST by pvcHH to XboxCubePS2

You don't think my last argument is a valid one? About the tiny on-the-go handheld machines being there more for boredom than actual functionality? That's why I'd place GBA and palm/pocket PC in the same market.

September 6, 2002, 6:48 PM CST by pat777

DC>PS2 by a lot.

September 6, 2002, 10:44 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to pvcHH

I actually find PDA's quite versatile and useful. I'd buy one if they were cheaper and if the market would decide which direction they're going to take PDA's in. Today, they're random hybrids of MP3 players, daily planners, cell phones, mobile emailers, etc, etc. I don't want to buy one of them and find out it loses support a year later. Once the industry settle on just what niche the PDA market is going to fill, I'll buy one.

September 6, 2002, 10:45 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to pat777

Especially when it comes to innovation.

September 7, 2002, 4:15 AM CST by XboxCubePS2

While were talking about what is or isn't a console...check out this from Gamespot: http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2879629,00.html

The PS2 is the most "un-console" of all the systems. Looks like the next one will complete the mutation.

September 7, 2002, 8:49 AM CST by pvcHH to XboxCubePS2

I guess the GBA target audience is younger and doesn't actually need PDAs to organize their time, because they go from school to home and back, and they need entertainment on the bus / train / waiting for whatever. Speaking in terms of majority, of course. There are plenty of folks our age with GBAs and the need of digital planners, cell phones, etc.

But yeah. I argue because I'm not sure really where my alliance lies with this discussion....

September 7, 2002, 8:56 AM CST by XboxCubePS2 to pvcHH

You know, I watched a program on BBC where some school was issuing PDAs to its students for note-taking, calculating, and a study-aid in class. They then found out that the downside of going the tech route like they did was that the kids quickly adapted the PDAs to a way of "passing notes" in class via wireless email. I think it was a school in Australia. Kids these days are spoiled!

September 7, 2002, 8:59 AM CST by pvcHH to XboxCubePS2

That's insane!

A friend of mine has a kid in high school in Jersey, and the highschool issued them fricken' laptops to take notes with. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing there was a lot of gaming / digital note passing over the wifi.

And yeah; some kids don't realize how lucky they are to be in a wealthy enough school system that they can get stuff like that; when others can't even afford books. Crazy.

September 7, 2002, 11:04 AM CST by OG10

Man that is crazy, when i was in india we used chalk and slate. That was enough for me..

September 7, 2002, 3:45 PM CST by Kolgar

Bottom line, consoles and portables are different types of products. They do some of the same things, but they're not the same.

Portables aren't consoles any more than PDAs are true game players or consoles are PCs. In fact, I think the word "console" by its very definition refers to a box or mounted control-panel-type machine.

Kolgar

September 7, 2002, 4:13 PM CST by BigGamer to pvcHH

Extremely crazy. That doesn't really help the learning experience much, and at what cost? Einstein did ok without such devices!

September 7, 2002, 9:04 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

Sorry, I don't agree. "Videogame consoles" are any type of hardware specialized for one primary purpose: playing videogames. Portable or not, it doesn't matter.

Unless you can pull out a Webster's or similar definition saying otherwise.

September 7, 2002, 9:53 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

I don't think the term "console" as it applies to video games is yet mainstream enough to appear in Webster's. But the manufacturers themselves probably make the distinction quite clear in their own product development departments and boardrooms.

I'm sure Nintendo has separate teams assigned to console and handheld development. I still insist that they're two different things.

But hey, you can call them what you like. Whatever trips your trigger. I'm just sure nobody will ever hear me say, "Hey, pass me that console, would you?" when asking to play a Gameboy.

Kolgar

September 7, 2002, 9:59 PM CST by BigGamer to XboxCubePS2

I always thought of a "console" as something that "sat in place". Most definitions of "console" in the dictionary have something to do with "cabinets", or "controls".

September 7, 2002, 10:01 PM CST by xjames19

In my native country we name to all console, Atari.

lol. There is not such thing like nintendo or playstation. Just Atari.

Un saludo amigo.

And the old people think that it break the tv.

September 7, 2002, 10:03 PM CST by BigGamer to xjames19

LOL ! So true. Where I live, it was Atari for most of the 80s. In the 90s you heard Nintendo, and the occasional Sega. Now it's mostly "Playstation". The naive mainstream.....

September 7, 2002, 10:23 PM CST by xjames19 to BigGamer

And in spain nintendo is called Niñendo. Niño means child, boy.

Un saludo amigo,

And microsoft is mocosoft. moco means snot. I don't sure about this one I used altavista translator.

September 7, 2002, 10:29 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to BigGamer

There was a time TVs were called "television sets", today a TV can be found 60 inches or larger, to a 5" one mounted in a minivan, to a 1 inch screen on a watch. In any case, they're all called TVs...whether its a "big-screen TV", "plasma TV" or "handheld TV". They all share the same basic function.

Same with consoles. Videogame consoles are still consoles no matter what shape they come in as long as they share the same basic function of playing videogames.

September 7, 2002, 10:37 PM CST by BigGamer to XboxCubePS2

I'm going to blow your mind, they are "Video Game Systems".....or how about "Video Game Machines"? The portable ones are "handhelds". The larger ones you hook up to the tv are called "consoles". Same kind of thing as.....hens, roosters, and chickens...they are all chickens, the rooster has.....; )

September 7, 2002, 10:42 PM CST by Suckattack

NEC PowerVR 2nd Gen. KICKS GS' ass!

September 7, 2002, 11:11 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to BigGamer

No, "consoles" is a category, whereas "handheld" is a sub-category. In the term "handheld console", "handheld" modifies "console". In the term "home console", "home" modifies "console". "Handheld" and "home" are adjectives modifying the noun. They are both "consoles" in this context.

According to Roget's Dictionary:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Console
n

1: a small table fixed to a wall or designed to stand against a wall [syn: console table]
2: an instrument consisting of displays and an input device that an operator can use to monitor and control a system (especially a computer system)
3: an ornamental scroll-shaped bracket (especially one used to support a wall fixture); "the bust of Napoleon stood on a console"
4: housing for electronic instruments, as radio or television [syn: cabinet]
5: give moral or emotional strength to [syn: comfort, soothe, solace]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
-----------------------------------------------------------

1. Xbox, PS2, Cube, GBA (gameboy)...none apply here since these devices are not tables or any other piece of furniture.

2. Hm. Displays AND an input device? Home videogame consoles require TVs or monitors to be used. The Gameboy systems were input devices AND had monitors. According to this defintion, portable videogame systems are the only true consoles. Let's move on...

3. None of the devices are used to support a wall fixture.

4. All of the systems are used to house electronic system, therefore this definition applies.

5. All the devices may give some of you comfort or solace, but this isn't the context we're looking for.

Definitions #2 and #4 apply to videogame systems in order to qualify for being categorized as a "console".

Let's look at the term "video game"...again from Roget's:

-----------------------------------------------------------
Video Game
n.

An electronic or computerized game played by manipulating images on a video display or television screen.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
-----------------------------------------------------------

All the videogame systems correctly suit the definition of "video game".

So when using the term "video game console", of Xbox, PS2, Gamecube, and GBA (Gameboy), only GBA completely suits the entire term since examining the term "console" shows that only the handheld system fits both relevent definitions (#2 and #4). For "video game", all systems qualify.

Lastly, let's look at "system":
-----------------------------------------------------------

Sys·tem
n.

1: A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.
2: A functionally related group of elements, especially:
The human body regarded as a functional physiological unit.
3: An organism as a whole, especially with regard to its vital processes or functions.
4: A group of physiologically or anatomically complementary organs or parts: the nervous system; the skeletal system.
5: A group of interacting mechanical or electrical components.
6: A network of structures and channels, as for communication, travel, or distribution.
7: A network of related computer software, hardware, and data transmission devices.
8: An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles.
9: A social, economic, or political organizational form.
10: A naturally occurring group of objects or phenomena: the solar system.
11: A set of objects or phenomena grouped together for classification or analysis.
12: A condition of harmonious, orderly interaction.
13: An organized and coordinated method; a procedure. See Synonyms at method.
14: The prevailing social order; the establishment. Used with the: You can't beat the system.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Definitions 1, 5, and 7, clearly fit Xbox, PS2, Gamecube, and GBA (gameboy). 6 and 12 could possibly fit depending on context and subjective interpretation.

Therefore, the term "system" fits all the gaming platforms. Since "video game" and "system" both clearly fit all the platforms, "video game systems" is the correct term to describe what they are. "Video game console" only correctly describes the GBA (gameboy) of the four platforms. It appears the general usage of "console" to describe all the systems can be described as slang.

September 8, 2002, 9:04 AM CST by Pichu to XboxCubePS2

It's just too bad that XBOX uses Intel CPU, not AMD CPU; otherwise, that will make XBOX the best, don't you think so?

September 8, 2002, 9:06 AM CST by BigGamer to quant

5: give moral or emotional strength to [syn: comfort, soothe, solace]

That's the only console you should be worried about right now, Mr. Too Much Time On His Hands !! (This was intended for Xboxgamecube)

September 8, 2002, 9:36 AM CST by Kolgar to BigGamer

I would agree with you, BigGamer. The television analogy works, but it doesn't use the same logic as xboxcubeps2's "console" idea.

They're video games, or video game players, no matter what size they are.

Pay close attention to how the manufacturers and the press use these terms. "Is Microsoft preparing to enter the console race?" was a question often asked in 1998 and 1999. They weren't referring to handhelds at the time.

Likewise, when people ask whether Microsoft, having entered the console market with Xbox, will eventually release a handheld system, they mean a portable game player ala Gameboy.

The distinction is clear.

Kolgar

September 8, 2002, 9:49 AM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

Hehe, thanks for the exhaustive research, and I appreciate what you're saying. But while I would agree that portable game systems are technically consoles according to the popular definitions of the term, I still don't see the industry itself using "console" to refer to portable game systems.

I'm most comfortable using the terminology most accepted and understood within the game industry itself.

But I know where you're coming from, and I certainly won't bust your balls over it. Technically, you're right. :)

Kolgar

September 8, 2002, 11:22 AM CST by Knowname to Pichu

It's just too bad that XBOX uses Intel CPU, not AMD CPU; otherwise, that will make XBOX the best, don't you think so?

yep... only if they went AMD wouldn't they have lower yeilds?? you think AMD could make enough chips to satisfy Xbox customers?? </sarcasm> No, but isn't that why MS went intel in the first place? lolo ironic...

September 8, 2002, 1:42 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Pichu

Yes! But nothing can be perfect!

September 8, 2002, 1:46 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

Well if we're all basically using videogame slang, then no one can really be wrong.

So if we were to elaborate on the statement: "Playstation was the best-selling console in history", this is true for home consoles. But for videogame systems as a whole, Gameboy is the best selling console in history.

September 8, 2002, 5:50 PM CST by XboxCubePS2

Sony continues to smoke the cheeba: http://www.msnbc.com/news/804550.asp?0dm=C21ET

Talk about not being a console at all. Soon your fridge and microwave will share processing power to play FFXV or Gran Turismo 5. If your new oven could possibly lend a hand, you'll have even faster load times! Just be careful defrosting those frozen chicken wings and turning on too many lights...I mean, you might trip a circuit breaker before you can save your game!

September 8, 2002, 5:54 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

So if we were to elaborate on the statement: "Playstation was the best-selling console in history", this is true for home consoles. But for videogame systems as a whole, Gameboy is the best selling console in history.

I'm with ya, man! ;)

Kolgar

September 8, 2002, 5:58 PM CST by Kolgar to XboxCubePS2

All that "boxless" talk is kind of disconcerting. I mean, I don't know how such a thing would work. And I like all these fun little boxes in my living room.

We'll have to see what happens, but I wonder if Sony isn't getting ahead of itself again like it did with the whole "computer entertainment" idea for PS2.

Kolgar

September 8, 2002, 6:32 PM CST by XboxCubePS2 to Kolgar

I don't think it's going to be accepted by the mass market. Such a device is too hard to define, and if the average Joe can't understand it without an IQ of 180, he's going to buy something else.

January 2, 2003, 5:01 PM CST by Wow

ya know what i think is funny..... I bet the creator of this forum, or the maintainer of this site is sitting behind his computer laughing at all of this nonsense.

i would be...
PEACE

January 2, 2003, 5:49 PM CST by chairmansteve to Wow

Yes, I often do laugh at nonsense.

January 3, 2003, 1:35 PM CST by khaid to khaid

it has some of the great Capcom and SNK fighting games.. The Last Blade 2, MvC series, SF3 and alpha games, and Capcom vs SNK series.

Hey look, I repeated myself.

January 4, 2003, 5:18 AM CST by phisix to Hayate

you can hardly compare ps2 with dc r u out of ur mindthe only game that was good 4 the dc was skys of arcadia but now that is coming 2 the ps2 and even the gamecube so ps2 beats dc with unexpected ease

January 15, 2003, 3:51 PM CST by KOF

Do I really need to say iy? ;)

DC of course.

And for once,

"One system can have 10 games, and the other 500, but if you like all 10 of the former and only 1 of the latter, then the number of games means nothing."

You took out words from my chest. That's exactly how I feel.

DC games I enjoyed so far.

Sonic Adventure
Shen Mue
Sakura Taisen
Virtua Fighter3
King of Fighters
Last Blade2
Mark of the Wolves
Capcom vs. SNK
Grandia2
Skies of Arcadia
Culdcept the second
Project Justice
Resident Evil : Code Veronica
Virtual On
House of the dead 2
Confidential Mission

PSX2 games I'm interested in so far
Xenosaga
Dynasty Warrior
Kessen
Shinobi
Sakura Taisen
Virtual On : Mars
Virtua Cop
Virtua Fighter4
ICO

To me, PSX2 clearly does not offer me enough of what I want, despite it's huge library.

About the controllers, I judge the particular controller's fidelity from its ability to play 2D fighting games, and PSX/2's Dual Shock takes the cake for the worst controller for 2D fighting games. DC controller has received the award in Japan as most ergonomic and comfortable controller ever, and I agree. the whole thing is comfortable to hold, and the analog stick is the best I've experienced so far (not awkard like Dual Shock and N64 one) and for digital pad, while I feel it's somewhat lacking, at least I can play King of Fighters. Now I'd like to see someone playing Capcom vs. SNK2 with Dual Shock and GameCube controllers. haha.

"I guess I don't consider that as much an afterthought as Sega hastily adding in a second Hitachi chip and other doodads into Saturn after they got wind of what Sony was up to with their design of PlayStation."

Correction. That's the popular belief, and that's not the truth. Sega's original successor to Genesis was codename "Giga Drive", which was essentially a mix of System32 + Model1. but after Sony's lies got them, they completely redesigned the system as is now. The parallel processing they decided to use was determined from the day they decided to redesign their console.

"a high-end PC has much higher specs than the consoles just as the consoles have a much higher spec than portables"

Nope, for starters, PCs does not have superior capability compared to consoles. Afterall, consoles don't have crappy northbridge to begin with. ;)

Second of all, when I purchased Nomad, the handheld Genesis, it wasn't miles below what Genesis was already doing. ;)

April 3, 2003, 11:28 PM CST by ImMoRTaL

I say DC, cause I just loved sega when I was younger, and thought PS2 was for rich people.

April 15, 2003, 8:07 AM CST by The_Dark_Rose

I don't think you can compare any consoles really. I have a psx 2 and I enjoy most games for it. Unfortunately I used to have a sega megadrive and I loved the sonic games for it, but you can't buy them for psx2 which is a true downfall. It's so frustrating when there's a game for a certain console and you really want it. I think Sega is giving in to sony though which is a shame, they've released a game or something for the psx2. I've never played or even seen someone playing a DC or an XBOX and would really like to see them being used, just to check out what they're like.

April 15, 2003, 8:20 AM CST by pjbliverpool to KOF

Nope, for starters, PCs does not have superior capability compared to consoles. Afterall, consoles don't have crappy northbridge to begin with. ;)

Hey thats pretty funny! You should be a comedian! I suppose you just forgot that the xbox DOES have a northbridge.

April 15, 2003, 8:25 AM CST by PirateGuy

PS2 over DC.

Proof, PS2 sells in millions, while Dreamcast is close to extinction.

Who cares about Northbridge? Having a Northbridge doesn't mean you will have great games.

April 15, 2003, 8:32 AM CST by pjbliverpool to PirateGuy

The Northbridge is just an element of the PC architecture and has been for years.

It doesn't really mean anything in terms of graphics in this context.

The xbox also uses a northbridge in its architecture and I suspect the Gamecube does too.

I was just pointing out that the guys statement about having a Northbridge made no sense - and that pc obviously have VASTLY superior graphical capabilites over consoles.

April 15, 2003, 8:37 AM CST by whocares to pjbliverpool

You know im started to see a pattern emerging in your posts!

April 15, 2003, 8:46 AM CST by pjbliverpool to whocares

If you are reffering to my preference for the pc then yes that is correct.

However you could also be reffering to the fact that I never state anything that is untrue in my posts.

Why? do you have a problem with my statement about the pc's superior graphics capabilities? As far as I am concerned, that was just a simple statement of fact. Not idle fanboy boasting. Afterall, it was in response to a console fanboy saying the exact opposite.

I think I am entitled to defend my platform of choice against blatently false comments.

April 15, 2003, 8:50 AM CST by PirateGuy to pjbliverpool

I beleive PC is capable of superior graphic. But of course, this topic is about "DC over PS2".

So my opinion (without bringing in anything PC related), is PS2 OVER OVER OVER DC. Nuff said.

April 15, 2003, 11:24 AM CST by The_Dark_Rose

I think in the end I'd have to choose my psx2 over a DC in the end, there are many more enjoyable games out there and you must admit, even if you do own a DC, or an XBOX, or even a gamecube, the sony playstation has it's name made already, sony is one of the most comercialised companies at the moment, it produces;

Tv's.
Consoles.
Mobiles.
And other stuff I can't think of.

Where as The manufacturer of Sega only specialises in consoles, XBOX(Microsoft right?) And the GameCube, well, that only does consoles as well.

April 25, 2003, 4:32 AM CST by bighead

I have to say it.

The Dreamcast SUCKED!!!

It had nothing that interested me. I tried so hard to find good games for it but the only two games I really liked were DOA2 and Soul Calibur. The graphics on the thing were horrible. Much worse than PS2, GC, or Xbox. I even prefer many PS1 games over the Dreamcast. I even prefer the graphics on my Riva TNT over the Dreamcast.

Yes the dreamacst had better graphics than the PS1 but look at most average DC games. God they sucked ass!.. The controler sucked and the games sucked. You can barely tell a diference between Chrono Cross for PS1 and half the games on DC as far as graphics.

However, I'm not biased against Sega.
I loved the Saturn and still play my Saturn. It had some of the very best 2D graphics available.

It also had some terrific games. I just got the Nights Into Dreams Boxed Set with the Controller on ebay. Damn nice graphics and a damn fun game

April 25, 2003, 4:45 AM CST by Jivia to The_Dark_Rose

Uh... Microsoft is nearly 3 times the size of Sony...

April 25, 2003, 4:52 AM CST by bighead to Jivia

Microsoft is nearly 3 times the size of Sony...

And the Xbox is still a huge failure.

April 25, 2003, 5:09 AM CST by Jivia to bighead

10 million units sold is a failure? o_O

April 25, 2003, 5:23 AM CST by Pichu to Jivia

3 times the size? Do you mean the number of employees or the revenues?

According to Global 500, here are these comparisons:

Rank, Company, Revenues ($ millions)

37 Sony 60,608.0
175 Microsoft 25,296.0

And, Nintendo isn't even on the list.

April 25, 2003, 5:27 AM CST by Jivia to Pichu

I meant net worth. Which Sony is probably still larger... oh well.. I was wrong... happens ^_^

April 25, 2003, 5:46 AM CST by chairmansteve to Jivia

Depending on the gauge, MS may be 60x size of Sony, or Sony may be 2.4x size of Microsoft.

Revenues ($ millions)
Microsoft = 25,296
Sony = 60,608

Profits ($ millions)
Microsoft = 7,346
Sony = 122.4

April 25, 2003, 6:02 AM CST by Jivia to chairmansteve

122 million... That's it? Man, their operating costs must be hellacious!

April 25, 2003, 8:21 AM CST by qwerty710710 to PirateGuy

I beleive PC is capable of superior graphic. But of course, this topic is about "DC over PS2".

are u kidding me madden 2001 for the ps2 looks better than the dreamcast games.DC went down the tube because the ps2 was much better than the crappy dc

April 25, 2003, 9:31 AM CST by one_grim_reaper

a difficult question as they both have there ups. I tend to look at games rather than power with consoles and this poses a problem for this topic. They both have great games on them but i think i enjoy playing my dreamcast games a little more than i do my PS2 ones in general. Games like Grandia 2 which i know u can now get on PS2 but i got it when it came out and skies of arcadia which is now on gamecube are the ones that sway it for me. I will have to say dreamcast.

April 25, 2003, 9:51 AM CST by whocares

Great thing about the dreamcast is you can pick em up at scandelously cheap prices and the games are real cheap too.

April 29, 2003, 9:14 PM CST by voyager

Por supuesto(of course)DC is better than PS2 the famous of PS2 is that belong to SONY I have my DC with 30games and I buy it at launch 9-9-99.,Who can forget this date.

May 21, 2003, 9:19 PM CST by Noir

I choose the PS2. IMO it is far superior to the DC.

The simple fact that the PS2 is still the #1 selling home console while the DC is pratically extinct should be all the proof one would require of this.

However I know people like what they like. I mean there are still some people who use tapes instead of CDs and VHS instead of DVD. Whatever floats your boat.

-noir

May 21, 2003, 9:36 PM CST by pat777 to Noir

PS2 is overrated. DC failed because of bad marketing not because of the system.

May 21, 2003, 10:19 PM CST by Gackt

Not over-rated, but over-hated.

It is a great system, has a great library of titles, can play PlayStation games, makes use of DVD media and has DVD Video playback. The Dreamcast cannot compete with such things, let's also add the fact that you do not even need a modchip to play backups discs, in other words, piracy was made easy on Dreamcast.

The Dreamcast failed because of Sega's MegaCD, GameGear, Nomad, 32X, Sega CDX and the Sega Saturn.

May 21, 2003, 10:57 PM CST by khaid

Even if I was presented with the choice of DC or PS2 now, I would still choose DC over PS2 even with the current library of games.

May 22, 2003, 12:57 AM CST by Gackt to khaid

What if Gekka no Kenshi 2 (Last Blade 2) was released on PlayStation2? ^_^

May 22, 2003, 1:04 AM CST by khaid to Gackt

Too many variables to answer that question.

But I'll try to narrow down some.. If it was only on PS2, then I would have to consider if it was worth buying PS2 just for that game. Which I would doubt since I like Super Robot Taisen series and I still have yet to consider even buying PS2 for that game.

But if it was for both systems and I already had DC and no PS2.. then I would buy it for DC of course.

May 22, 2003, 1:07 AM CST by Gackt to khaid

I believe you have your copy of Super Robot Taisen Alpha on Dreamcast, don't you? ^_^

May 22, 2003, 1:15 AM CST by dude404 to khaid

Ok, what if you have a PS2 and a DC, which console would you buy it for?